Milo and John

Tying the Pieces Together
April 24th, 2008, 11:00 pm

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Posted by JiminycricketX
April 22nd, 2008, 11:25 pm

All right, a battle of wits it is!

I think you missed what I was saying about the Wiimote usage. I didn't think the aiming was unresponsive at all. Rather, I thought it was the most well implemented of the Wii controls. It was the swordplay I had a problem with. You would probably only notice this if you've played both versions (like I have) but the remote flicking controls for the Wii version were very unresponsive as compared to the B button on the gamecube. Also, it didn't take advantage of the fact that the wiimot can sense up, down, and side to side motions individually. Think of how it would be if an up flick made you do an up virtical slash up? Or a down flick a downward slash? Or a stabbing motion an actual stab? No, instead, flicking the controller in any direction is read as one single action, like a button press, only not as responsive. Seriously, it felt tacked on and lazy.

Oh, and about the wolf sections, you ALSO missed my point. I wasn't griping about the wolf form as an ability, I was griping about those four long, boring, feth quests where you are stuck as the wolf. THOSE sucked. Those were like the triforce collection quest in Wind Waker, only even more boring. I'm okay with the ability to transform into a wolf. Like you said, it makes you a lot quicker. But to trap as it for three of the longest and most boring sections of the game was sheer torture. And seriously, the combat as the wolf was shallow and crappy too. I eventually resorted to just charging up my kill all special attack just to avoid bothering with the clunky, simplistic wolf combat system.

Also, that wolf digging ability would be very useful for finding hearts indeed, if there was ever a time in the game where your health bar got low enough to need you to dig for hearts. Besides, in past games you had the shovel tool, which was easier to use, and you could dig everywhere, and you didn't have to switch to wolf form to use it.

And again, with the combat thing, you miss my point entirely. Did you miss all my comments about how superfluous the combat system in TP was? The number of combos, and the ability to do all the wind waker parry moves at will may have been nice, but unless you didn't notice, even the hardest enemies in the game could be easily vanquished without thier need. Even the enemies with shields are pathetically easy to defeat, because all you have to do is bash them in the face with your shield to open up thier defenses. In all past Zelda games, you were rewarded for patience, carefully timed strikes, and the ability to maneuver well in battle to keep yourself in an advantageous position. In Twilight princess, your are rewared for mashing buttons, and mowing down the dozens of slow, weak enemies who rarely do more than half a heart of damage on the rare occasions they do hit you. This is why I think the Wind Waker parry system was such a loss. It was an improvement on the old Ocarina of Time combat, and like Zelda combat should, it rewards you for taking risks and timing your moves well. The whole point of the system was to make you risk leaving yourself open for a hit, for the sake of nailing a powerful, effective, and usually unblockable attack. Sure, the new attacks in Twilight Princess look cool, and maybe are good for taking out loads of enemies easily, but that isn't Zelda. Twilight Princess symbolizes nintendo taking a lot of concepts that made the Zelda series great, and flushing them down the toilet. It's the Star Wars effect. The old movies weren't as flashy as the new ones, but they were better because that's the way they were supposed to be. By experimenting and changing the things fans loved about the series, Lucas ended up making three films that were disapointing to say the very least, were they should have pushed the series onward into a new level of excellence.

Difficulty? Frankly, I just plyed Twilight Princess through a week ago, and I'm played Ocarina on the Virtual Console right now. Yes, I can tell from comparing them that Ocarina of Time is much more difficult than Twilight Princess. This is sad, because I don't find Ocarina of time to be a difficult game. And yet, it still puts up far more of a challenge than its comically easy younger sibling, TP. And how about a Link to the Past? Or Link's Awakening? Or the Oracles games? Or the first two Zelda games on the NES? Even Majora's Mask? Or Minish Cap? Even Phantom Hourglass on occasion? Every one of these games far overshadow Twilight Princess in diffculty, and it only helped Twilight Princess to be a bit of a dissapointment.

And actually, you don't even need the Hookshot to beat Ganon in OoT. You can just roll between his legs when he raises his sword to attack you. Saves magic and time.

And a little tip, arguing that you love Zelda is probably the worst way to go about defending it. Zelda fans have a bit of a reputation of being blindly fanatical. All the perfect 10 scores out there for Twilight Princess prove this fact.

And lastly, Twilight Princess is certianly not a step up for the series. Sideways and a bit backwards is more like it. Everything done in Twilight Princess was done before and far better in previous Zelda games. Even if it weren't for all my earlier criticisms, there was enough new ideas in play to make TP even a baby-step forward. The wolf transformation ability? It seems like the Majora's Mask transformations, only unlike TP, there were 3 Majora's Mask forms, and they were actually fun to play as. The dark world? A Link to the past had an entire alternate dark world if I recall, just as big as Hyrule, and complete with all its own dungeons. The combat system? Oh, I think I already spoke of what they did wrong with that as compared to Wind Waker, Ocarina, and all the rest. Massive world? Not as big as the one in Wind Waker, and Wind Waker had more side quests as well. Interesting cast of characters? I seem to recall that in Majora's Mask every NPC in the game had a schedule, most had a backstory, and practically all of them had some side quest or minigame for you to do? Not to mention one of the more interesting villains in Zelda history. Speaking of villains, was that final battle with Ganon supposed to be climactic? Please. How about the battle with Ganon in OoT? Where Ganondorf resorted to unleashing the full power of the Triforce of power, transforming into a beast that was waaaaaaaay cooler than beast ganon in TP. Not to mention that it was pitch dark the entire time, except for the flashes of lighting that would briefly sillhouette Ganon's monstrous form. Dude, even with the aging N64 graphics, that battle was still heart-pounding. Or how about Wind Waker? Where you duel ganon on the top of Hyrule Castle, while around you the ocean itself is cascading down, bringing a true end to the country of Hyrule. Those were freaking epic, not a duel in Hyrule field, where those stupid glowing walls block off your view of the entire field. Seriously, they could have done better. And I've already shot my mouth off about the challenge TP offers. Or rather, the lack thereof. And what about this whole 'dark' thig they nintendo was shooting its mouth off about? Hell, Wind Waker was darker than Twilight Princess, and that isn't even to mention Ocarina, A Link to the past, or even the darkest of dark Zeldas: Majora's Mask.

So what do you get with Twilight Princess? A nice looking game to be sure, but one that is also not as hard as A Link to the Past, not as complex as the Oracles games, not as innovative as Ocarina of Time, not as unique as Wind Waker, not as Dark as Majora's Mask, not as 'magical' as Minish Cap, and with controls that weren't anywhere near as well implemented as the touch screen controls in Phantom Hourglass. What do you get? A good game that excels at nothing. Unfortunately, since the Zelda series has a reputation for not just quality, but excellence, Twilight Princess is was a big let down.

So flash your replica Master Sword at me all you want. That won't make Twilight Princess into a better game.

Shin Kerron, Zayl-San, and TrickityHouses, I'll send you guys my Brawl friend codes when I get a chance.

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Reader's Comments:


Shin Kerron
Posted by Shin Kerron
April 25th, 2008, 12:52 pm

Oh, you're asking for it now Milo. NEVER get Shin Kerron into an arguement about Legend of Zelda, I've yet to lose one.

Tacked on and lazy swordplay you say? BAH! BAH I SAY! The swordplay was one of my favorite portions. If Puzzel Solving is the meat of Zelda games, then swordplay is the potatoes, and Twilight princess gave me gravy to go with them. (Note, I do not like gravy in reality.) I don't know about you, but my Link was very responsive. Sometimes a little too responcive when I was trying to defend myself, aka I'd move my right hand a bit to make it more comfortable while I was trying to block, and Link would think I was telling him to attack and thus accidentally get slashed instead of the enemy weapon bouncing harmlessly off of his sheild. I found that he would also respond a bit faster and more like you wanted to when you would make the motion mimic the sword actions he wanted. I don't know if that was just because I got a better feel for the timeing or not, but it worked, and I loved it. Swing in an upward slash, Link'd knock his foe clean off his feet. Downward Slash? I saw enemies become dazed even if they were still standing. Stab? Good bye Monster's soft and fleshy stomach. My Link could have won my admiration if he didn't already have it with these controls.

As for how they were more like a button press, remember, not only teenagers and young adults like Zelda games. You also get the little hyperactive kids that arn't going to think straight and will just roam around hyrule swinging their sword willy-nilly. Nintendo has to account for them as well. Thus we regretably get some overly simplified slashes and hacks in with Link's arsonal. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean the person who made it didn't either. A good adventurer always knows when to step back at something that doesn't make sense and consider why it was made that way.

As for the Wolf sections, I laughed aloud at the thought that it took you a long time to do such simple missions and abandoned the wolf fighting style for the rush attack. His fighting style was useful if you knew how to apply it. For one thing, it was lower to the ground, so it was easier to deal with a good number of foes because you could knock one over while you concentrated on his buddies. I personally enjoyed hunting down the bugs, having Wolf Link's senses have less range than his normal sight made it a challenge, as well as figuring out where they all hid themselves. I'll admit, finding the one in Kakariko village that hid itself in the stove took some time to figure out, but I enjoyed squishing every last one of those bugs.

As for finding hearts, yeah I'll admit it was hard to get Link down to low health, but it happened, Especially AS a wolf. That's why I said that digging for hearts was useful. I didn't mention earlier, but they were also good for when I needed to quickly fill my pocket after donating a lot of money to Milo's shop fund. And Don't mention the jump down in price after completing the one temple, I know about it and took advantage of it. After that I admit that you almost ALWAYS have a pleasently full wallet and nothing to spend it on, cept keeping your magic armor going maybe. As for your comment on the Wind Waker triforce peice gathering quest... WAS I THE ONLY ONE WHO ENJOYED SOME OF THAT?! I'll admit, some of the locations made me want to stab Shigaru in the eyes, but I wouldn't do that because that would be wrong and I love him for giving us this series. But overall, it was like the missing three dungeons they failed to give us. Afterall, in most Zelda games you have a total of 8 dungeons, Windwaker only had 5, I was dissapointed.

You said that the hardest enemies in the game could be easily vanished... BULL. The heavily armored creatures that replaced darknuts, I believe they still are called darknuts but I am uncertain. Those suckers could take a good hour or so if you weren't able to get a lucky shot in every once in a while. Once they dropped their larger weapon, they became near invulnerable, able to turn around even when I tried to backslice them or get them from behind, and block my blade. If I tried to sheild smack them, they would shove me to the ground and I would have to roll out of the way to keep from getting stepped on or hit by a downwards slash. Taking on three of those guys before facing ganondorf was a pain in my neck. And as for your discussion of rewards based on careful timed slash, did you forget the ball and chain trooper? Hmm? How hard it was in that confined hallway to get a good shot in without getting smashed? I am shocked that you call yourself a zelda fan, accusing the battle system in Twilight Princess of being button massing.

As for the parry system in Windwaker, I hated it. It was pointless to me. It required that you make yourself vulnerable while waiting for enemies to attempt to strike you, and sometimes it wouldn't connect. Sure, in one on one fights it was great, but when your opponent has buddies, you would constantly be pincered by them, and no matter what you did to try and salvage the parry you would get hit by one of them, either the one of them. Either move out of the way of the person behind you and get hit by the one you were trying to parry, or try and parry early and end up attacked by both. And during the triforce gathering quest, there were several areas where monsters had buddies. Link's not one to give his opponents an opening. He's more one to analyze their abilities, then cut them down. The parry ability forced Link to leave himself vulnerable, if only for a moment. And you're talking to the guy who wracked up 300 hits against Orca before I even took one. I ended that battle with over 600.

...You did not just pull the starwars trick. Listen, there's a reason everybody loved the first three movies to be released. They were written better, the writter openly admitted it, that's why they were released first! The last three to be released were prequals, and were written poorly because he was still developing the world at the time. So shut up, I didn't like the movies either, but it's a poor excuse.

Now for the difficulty level. You're probably gonna hate me a bit for what I'm about to say, so I appologize in advance... Ocarina of time was honestly so easy I find it somewhat sad. Now don't go biting my head off. I love Ocarina of time, it was the first game I actually played on my own. Its special to me, very special. But I played it about two months ago... and beat it in less than a week, including taking time to do the trade quest and such, and I played it mostly over my school lunch hour. Twilight Princess has more difficulty in my honest opinion. Here the arguement is moot, since we only have opinions and the difficulty is more likely a result of our own playing styles.

Rant to be completed later due to school. I'm not finished.


Posted by Shin (In guest form!) (Guest)
April 25th, 2008, 2:39 pm

Now then, I'll say a few things about about how Twilight Princess, for me, was a step forwards. One, you talk about how the story isn't dark. Think about it, the kingdom is invaded, their whole defence is cut through, and the princess in absense of any other form of royal power, is forced to make a decision. Death of her people, or trapped withen a realm that leaves them nearly as good as that, and they aren't even aware of their fate. They suffer as lost spirits, no clue as to why they've been brought this way. Then you go over to the twilight realm, A man who's all hope of a better life has been crushed time and time again. He's on his last limbs, from the look of it his will to even get back up was broken... Then que the villian, Ganondorf who offers him empty promises, Zant has no other real choice at this point, and is tradegicly reduced to becoming the puppet to the evil king, which in the end costs him his own life as Ganondorf snatches away his strength after losing to Link in order to reclaim his own physical being. Then you have Midna, the sad queen of her own prison, day in and day out trying to make life livable for her people, only to have one of them curse her, and snatch away all of her power. She's then forced to rely on a power more ancient, the same power that caused her people to be sealed in the goddess forsaken land.

And we come to Zelda... Now in a posistion the same as Midna, who everyday is only able to stare down at her kingdom and wonder if she made the right choice to surrender. She looks out, seeing that her own castle is the home to monsters that turn her loyal subjects into their own kind should they be killed by them. Then, Midna, whom never asked for anything more than assisting Link on his journey, is given her own strength and life energy to survive.

Finally, we come to Ganondorf, who's evil grows more obvious than just simply jumping ahead after his actions. You see his events, killing off one of the sages, turning a foolish innocent man into his dark puppet, manipulating Zelda herself, and finally swearing that Hyrule's history shall be written in blood even in his own defeat, before his life is ended by the spirit of the same man he tricked to regain a body.

Then, compair to 'the darkest of dark Zeldas: Majora's mask' ...You're joking right? The moon is cursed by a little boy who was upset his friends left and got possessed by an evil mask who just plain was emo and wanted the world to burn with him.

GAH! Cruses, I must leave again! I am not finished!


Shin Kerron
Posted by Shin Kerron
April 25th, 2008, 4:37 pm

Now then, as for the world, true it is not as massive as Windwaker, but that's a good thing. They made Windwaker TOO massive, and it wound up taking forever to get anywhere with little to break up the action. Twilight Princess's world was large, but not as big, and had more to keep you paying attention as you traveled around. Unlike in Windwaker where you could sail for hours on end without running into anything, Twilight Princess has enemies located along some of the routes you must frequent that will hunt you down and will take more than a single shot with a bomb or an arrow to take down.

As for Majora's mask's cast of characters, you're incorrect, only characters involved with the sidequests had actual schedules. True this made them more realistic, Twilight Princess did something else that's realistic as well. Several people stop and stare at Link, but refuse to talk to him. I mean, if you saw a weirdo with a sword in green running around, you'd be confused and obviously would be stareing, but unless you were a Zelda fan, you'd probably want to put him on your 'avoid' list. Plus if you run around as a wolf, they will shriek and attempt to run away from you, actually changing their path based on where you are.

As for the final battle with Ganondorf, THAT WAS climatic. A battle in the audience chamber of Hyrule Castle, where you must fight to free Zelda, then face him Beast against Beast (This one actually RESEMBLES him somewhat at least, and seems to actually know what its doing rather than just chasing around after you in a blind rage) Then, Midna attempts to fight him in all his fury, only to fail and have Hyrule Castle come collapsing down atop the both of them, Ganondorf unscathed as the champion, with his attention drawn on you... As for the duel's setting, I find the twilight sun to be more epic than storm clouds. Because you are left to interpret, is this the light of dusk, soon to expire and give way to the dark of night? Or is it the light of dawn, casting off the darkness that has held us? And then there's the blades locked portion, a hero and a villian, stareing each other in the eyes, each struggling for dominance over the other, giving you a more up close and personal feeling of fighting Ganondorf, as opposed to strikeing and then fleeing from his counterattack. It really feels like you're battling him, mono-a-mono. Plus, you need to wait for your openings, because he is adept at blocking your strikes, and if you attempt to use your skills on him he will literally jump up out of your sight, disabling your Z lock to come up behind you to attempt to cut you down. Then, the final strike! plowing the blade of evil's bane through his black twisted heart, looking him in the face as the shock of his defeat at the hands of the hero forms on his face. Even then, he is reluctant to accept failure, determined to crush you with his might, only to have his cast off plaything end him by cutting off it's own exsistance as well (aka, Zant's neck snap thing, he's breaking his link to the living world, which means Ganondorf is killed as well because he used Zant's lifeforce to regain his body). I stood up and was awed by the events.

Now that I have countered your points, I'm about to add my own.

Twilight Princess's true glory lies in its storyline, which is more in-depth than the previous Zelda games. Random encounters and storyline plots such as having to rescue the children from the Bulbin King gives you an actual sense of need to save the kingdom, rather than just listening to NPCs. You are present there as the darkness is attempting to spread, and for once, you can do something to stop it, hault its progress forwards, prevent the tragedy from happening rather than listen to what happened. You're not just releasing the land from falling entirely to darkness, you're defending it. You're proving what it means to truely be a hero.

The Storyline also provides a deeper look at Link, his responces to events are no longer just nuetral or obvious. When you hear that Illa berate you for not taking care of Epona, Link cringes at her lecturing, his head lowers somewhat in shame. When the spirit tells you the story of the fused shadows, Link's face widens in shock at the feelings of greed created by them and falls to his knees from how overwhelming it had been. As Zelda is freed from Ganondorf's grasp on her, he shows relief and attempts to go to her, then confusion as Midna stops him. That isn't to say that Link still isn't capable of being the stoic bad-ass we know and love in dramatic events, but it gives him a more human feeling, making it so you can identify with him moreso, strengthening the meaning of his name, a link between the player and the character.

The characters in the story are colorful, and not all of them think Link's up to the tasks he takes on, true that there have been others like this in the past, but usually their opinions are turned around by the time Link clears the first or second dungeon. Characters in Twilight Princess usually need to observe some of Link's heroics first hand before they realize just what kind of person they're talking to. Overall they've further made NPCs seem more believable, because not everyone is going to let you by just because you have such and such an item.

The storyline also has more depth as in more of it is revealed as you progress rather than you learning most of the backstory early on. Link actually is somewhat hesistant to fight at the beginning until Midna makes it obvious that unless he helps her, he's stuck and won't be able to save the children. Link's primary motivation for a while is saving the people whom are immediately important to him, while as he progresses he starts to realize that he's caught up in something far bigger than that, and he needs to see it through to the end. Rather than knowning the full story once you've reached a midpoint as well, you don't get Zant's story until you face him in the semi-final dungeon, and you don't learn of Zelda's fate until midway through the final boss fight.

Then the actual gameplay comes up, now I know I talked about the swordplay already, but there's something I'd like to add to it. Sure you can call the wii-mote unresponsive and ill-effective, but there's something to that that a gamer can appreciate. You are doing Link's actions as he does them, you are mimicing what you want him to do. Through that, you start to feel some of what Link's struggle is like, Your mistakes are his mistakes, your triumphs are his triumphs, your skills influence his. You become closer to the hero you control.

The dungeons themselves are creative, ever fought your way through an old mansion a couple of yetis had moved into before? Now that's entertaining. Plus the puzzels make you learn to master your items to progress, for example the double clawshot in the oocoa city, moving from pillar to pillar while the peices are gradually slipping off due to your weight.

The enemies range from the comical, to the intimidating, to the 'stop moving around and die already!' sort. Winning King Bulbin's respect for me was unexpected, and somewhat ironic. One of the most stubborn reoccuring monsters in the game suddenly stops in mid-battle to talk about how you've earned his respect and then gives you the key? I had to chuckle at the irony. Facing him on the bridge in that sort of jousting type battle was fun.

Sure, you could call Ganondorf's transformed state in OoT more intimidating than the one in TP, but his normal form was far more intimidating. He's much larger than you, and has powerful limbs that look as if they could rip you in half if he got his hands on you. Overall, I think the more humanoid Ganondorf is scarrier, because a monster is just a monster, and doesn't care about you suffering, it just wants you dead. Ganondorf smirks and chuckles at your actions, grinning at every little peice of your chessboard he can take away, as if his image alone could convey what he intends to do once he has dealt with you. Plus it makes it much more pleasurable to finally cut him down.

Twilight Princess for me, was a game so great, that the instant the credits had finished rolling and I had saved my game, I started a new one, from the beginning, that same night, not even powering off before I did so.

You can nay say it all you want Milo. But if I see you doing so, I will be there to break down your arguement, and provide my counter just as strong, if not stronger.

May the way of the hero lead to the triforce.

Posted by Strawberrylemonade
April 26th, 2008, 11:51 pm

*eye twitch* Okay then. I really have nothing to add at this point.

Posted by tRickityHouses
May 2nd, 2008, 5:37 pm

holy cowerz thats a ton of comment....

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